Elsmar Cove is closed!

Elsmar Cove, a discussion forum for both professionals and novices in the business of quality assurance and industry standards, is closed.  It is clear that the site is already missed by thousands of users.  And folks who’ve come to rely on the “people helping people” Elsmar ethic are scrambling for venues to replace the information-sharing service the site provided.

Since both Document Center and Elsmar Cove have (had) a mission to help people understand standards and use them effectively, founder Marc Timothy Smith and I had a phone conversation on Monday to discuss Elsmar and it’s closing.

What happened to Elsmar Cove?  As noted on the website’s homepage (and only page now), it’s has been closed as part of a settlement that stemmed from a civil lawsuit filed in Florida. Mr. Smith, who founded the site in the mid 1990’s, is not allowed to reveal any details of the settlement that resulted in the closure of the Elsmar Cove.

What made Elsmar Cove special?  First and foremost, the site was a free resource for anyone with a question about quality assurance, national and international standards, regulations, or compliance.  Elsmar Cove was originally started as a informational website and evolved over the years into a discussion forum specifically geared to the questions folks have when dealing with many specialized niches.  It gave you a place to ask if anyone has faced a particular quality assurance related problem and find out what solutions have proved to be effective.

Elsmar Cove was a moderated site, with perhaps 10 moderators active at any given time but a stable of 25 to 30 in total.  Why moderated?  Like it’s founder, Elsmar was interested in providing an environment for sharing rather than self-promotion.  So folks with strong quality backgrounds monitored the forum to make sure that interchanges were on topic and focused on the mantra of “People helping People.”

Who is Marc Timothy Smith?  Mr. Smith is an “old quality hand” with extensive experience stemming from work with military quality systems back in the 1980’s.  His background in biology and chemistry from his college years made him particular strong in processes, using flow charts for both business analysis and quality control.   Since he’s from the Ohio area, his defense gig soon morphed into consulting work in the automotive and aerospace industries and beyond.  Stints included work for such companies as Harley Davidson, Motorola, Ford, Borg-Warner and Boeing.

As a side-line, Mr. Smith started a quality assurance information website in January, 1996.  Over time, this became the Elsmar.com discussion forum we’ve come to know and love.  With the gradual expansion of the forum, Marc found himself concentrating on the service and it’s software backbone by 2003/2004.  Only after early 2004 did Marc turn to Adsense and other advertising for the financial support that’s needed to operate such an extensive site.

Will Elsmar Cove be back?  No, the Elsmar Cove you’ve known will not be returning.  However you will find a number of niche forums cropping up as various moderators create venues based on their areas of expertise.  For example, those of you in the medical device field should now check out www.medicaldevices.expert.

What’s next for Marc Smith?  You can bet that Mr. Smith is looking for the next opportunity to make a contribution to the quality assurance and standards community.  His extensive consulting background is only one of the assets he possesses.  From his unique perspective watching and monitoring the landscape of the quality field, he offers a wealth of experience in understanding the compliance challenges many companies and industries face.

Never much of a self-promoter, he’s always relied on recommendations to generate business for himself.  But he still has an on-going interest in the quality community, in the requirements for compliance that face many businesses, and in participating in helping others achieve success.  Of course, his CV is lengthy displaying a familiarity with the quality concerns of a broad range of industries.  And his experience with Elsmar has only further expanded his grasp of the continuing concerns around which most quality issues revolve.  Check him out at http://www.linkedin.com/in/elsmarmarc or reach out to him at marcsmith102@cinci.rr.com.

As our conversation wrapped up, I ask Marc what legacy he hoped Elsmar Cove would have.  Of course, he replied “People helping people.”  There’s no question that he achieved that goal.  I’m looking forward to seeing what door opens for him in the next phase of his fascinating career!

As for me, there’s still a lot of questions about what happened.  It looks like I’m going to have to do some sleuthing on my own to get any answers, if they’re out there at all.  If I find them, you’ll be the first to know!

Published by

Claudia Bach

Claudia Bach is the President of Document Center Inc. and a world-wide recognized expert on Standards and Standards Distribution. You can connect with her on Google+

40 thoughts on “Elsmar Cove is closed!”

  1. Wow this was quite a shock. I do not understand why its closed if it was so popular. I got a lot of valuable info and assistance from this site. Would still like to know why.

  2. Hi Stephan:
    Thanks so much for asking. I have discovered more about this situation. However, I am not prepared to write anything further at the present moment.
    There is a lot of malicious and contentious activity surrounding this issue right now. So delving into the particulars of the situation may not be the best course of action at this time.
    However, it brings to mind a number of questions for the quality community as a whole and for discussion forums in general as well. These questions are top of mind for me right now and as I think them through I’ll have more to say on the subject.
    Regards,
    Claudia

  3. Hi Marc
    I am very sorry you were obblige to close elsmar.com.
    Was very important for me. And for other persons.
    I wish you all fortune you can have for your next job.
    Only a prayer: do not forget our simple quality people.

    Andrea Barbieri

  4. I tried to go to the site last week to look something up for an audit nonconformance. I was really surprised. It seems really odd someone would have a problem with this site since I’ve been going there for over 15 years and never saw anything questionable. I appreciated all the work both Marc and the moderators. Miss you already.

  6. Sorry to see that Elsmar Cove has closed. This is not good News to all of us that have come to the Cove to learn, find answers to problems, and to talk quality issues over. So sad that they have closed. Now where can we go to get this quality service we got from the Cove. The people on the Cove who gave us piece of mind and help were the best. Who ever has had any part in closing down the cove has taken a part of very important information and help to those of us who needed it. I’m sure I’m with the millions of people who would like to see Elsmar Cove back up and running. I wish all those involved in Elsmar Cove all the success in sorting this out.

  8. Hi Francine:
    Thanks so much for the sentiment. There’s lots of people who feel just like you!

    We’ve got a couple of new resources for you already. Of course, the long historical list of posts to Elsmar is now gone. But these new forums will at least be available for questions and comments moving forward.

    Regards,
    Claudia

  9. If Elsmar Cove can be shut down, ALL internet forums are at risk. While I respect copyright infringement laws, the freely shared comments that WE, the general public, made in this open forum after knowingly signing up with Elsmar Cove is OUR CONTENT. I think a strong case can be made for restoring all of the comments that were not related to the lawsuit, which I assume is > 99% of the site’s content. This was a no-fee, zero profit website whose helpful content rightly belongs to the thousands of medical device professionals around the globe who, for over a decade, created it by simply answering one another’s Regulatory Affairs and Quality Assurance questions. The site’s clear benefits to society in terms of increased process/product/regulatory compliance, manufacturing improvements, device efficacy and patient safety cannot be overestimated. Our shared wisdom harms no one, and potentially helps us all do much better jobs of protecting the public. Delete any attachments you like and make us sign proprietary content disclaimers, but PLEASE RESTORE OUR USERS’ COMMENTS!

  10. I really feel sad knowing that i will no longer read from our fellow Covers their thoughts, ideas, opinions, recommendations, even thanks. Elsmar Cove has given me a lot in understanding and establishing quality, environmental, health and safety management systems. It also gave me opportunities to share what I have. Taking and giving through Elsmar Cove really made feel good. I wish that Marc Smith will be able re-activate Elsmar Cove

  11. Hi Greyling:
    Thanks so much for the comment.

    After some discussion, it is my understanding that it is improper to draw a straight line between any civil suit and the closing of Elsmar Cove. However, I am in complete agreement with you that the removal of posts that were free of any impropriety, like copyright infringement, is a loss to the quality community at large.

    I trust that as a lessons learned, this situation will help focus attention on process improvement. There needs to be a way reduce improper posts (like those that defame others or illegally post copyright content) that make sites vulnerable to lawsuits. Then too, perhaps the question of how to sustain a community site like this should also be discussed. Relying on one main champion to do the heavy lifting with the help of a team of moderators may not be a sustainable model.

    With regards to bringing back the undisputed portions of Elsmar Cove, I certainly can’t make any predictions or comments. But those who are setting up replacement forums right now will certainly be thinking about this issue.

    Thanks again for bringing these issues to our attention. I personally appreciate your bringing the wider questions to the table.
    Regards,
    Claudia

  12. Haven’t been on the cove for a while and come back to find it’s gone. It’s always been a place to see reasoned arguments and explanations in the quality world. I am very sad we have lost it.
    Regards to all
    Andrew Nicolson

  13. WOW…….. this is such a shame!!!
    I’m sure a good replacement site will crop up….. for a fee.
    Its all about money, it is ALWAYS all about money… in some fashion.

    Sad to see such a good resource go. Especially when I (and many small companies) need it so much.

  14. Just wanted to express my appreciation and thanks to all the people involved with keeping Elsmar up and running as long as it did. It was always my “go to” place for advice and information concerning QA topics. THANK YOU!!!

  15. Very sad to see the site go down, has been very good to me over the last 10 years or so. It symbolised collaboration for the greater good of all. A rarity commodity.
    Thanks to all who moderated, contributed and created.

  16. I received the news of Elsmar Cove to end at a particular time. I was so shock, it was like losing a friend. Next day, I stayed up to watch the Elsmar Cove die. This site has been my personal “Beacon of Hope? like the lighthouse it represents. Marc has a very good work ethics. And he lived up to his philisophy of “People helping people”. That’s what we are here for. I wish Marc good luck in his next career. Please let me know what he is doing for theQuality Community and I will be there to support him.

  17. Is it possible to restore the forums at least temporarily or use google cache? There was just so much information that’s lost.

  18. Thanks so much for asking, Sam:
    It appears that at this time the Elsmar Cove information, both on the original URL and on the web archive, has been removed. I agree, there’s a lot of information there, much of it quite useful. Only time will tell if there’s any way to bring any of it “back to life.”
    Regards,
    Claudia

  20. It’s been 10 days since we launched http://qualityrecord.com the QAForum.

    And I want to thank you for supporting the launch of the site. We’ve had over 800 unique visitors and over 33,000 hits.

    We are on twitter. You can get updates of new topics and posts by following us at https://twitter.com/QAForum or @QAForum A link to the twitter feed can be found on the top right of the main page.

    Also, you can get a quick listing of all new posts by using the “Portal” link at the top right of the main page, next to the twitter button. Or: http://www.qualityrecord.com/portal.php

    I have listened to your advice and suggestions and opened new forums. I want to thank “BloodBank” from the UK for all her uploading of documents. If you want to see what QMS looks like at a British Hospital take a look. And a big thanks to “Kevowatts” for his posts. I used his latest post as the “Question of the Day”. Or maybe “rant” of the day?? We’ve all been there. QA can be a lonely job, many of us are the only QA people in our companies. A little support is greatly appreciated.

    The majority of incoming links came from http://standardsforum.document-center.com , followed by https://www.reddit.com/search?q=elsmar with help from linkedin.com.

    The strangest from http://burger-imperia.com/ anybody need a dating site for Dubai?

    And most of you visit a lunch time.

    The countries with the most visitors are in order: USA, UK and Canada/India, Although it seems every time I look, the Chinese search engine baidu.com is on the site. So remember guys, watch the technical content.

    Please keep the suggestions coming, including topics for the Topic of the Day, it’s tough thinking of something interesting every day. You can direct email me from the site.

    Privacy: I will never lend, sell, or give your email address away. Except by request of Law Enforcement. Very simple and I’ve never broken that promise. Never.

    I will direct email the crew very infrequently. I wanted to let you know about the twitter feed.

  21. Hi,
    I am heartbroken to learn that Elsmar Cove is closed. This site was such a valuable resource to me as a Quality professional.
    I don’t know what else to say… Where do I go now?

  22. Hi Sara:
    Thanks so much for checking in about this. There’s so many folks who feel the same way you do.

    As to where to go next, there’s a number of choices springing up right now (Yes, Elsmar Cove’s closing left a huge void for discussion for quality professionals like yourself). What you’ll find is that a number of the moderators for Elsmar Cove are starting their won forums or linked in groups depending on their areas of expertise.

    A good place to start is the Ohio Bay Specialists, at https://www.linkedin.com/grp/home?gid=8333501 This is the first place that the moderators started “regrouping” in order to continue the work started by the Elsmar Cove.

    If you still need additional guidance, let me know what your area of expertise is and I’ll see if I can’t direct you to a more specific resource.

    Hope this is helpful!
    Regards,
    Claudia

  23. I’ve been going to the Cove on and off for years, its always been an amazing resource… Feels like I lost an old friend 🙁 Will check out some of the newer sites, but the history in the old Cove is irreplaceable. Very sad that someone saw fit to put the Cove out of business rather than work with Marc to ‘clean’ up whatever content was objectionable. (All I have to say to them is that Karma doesn’t forget.) Grateful to Mark and all that contributed to the Cove!

  24. I too am in anguish that Elmar cove was closed. Thank you so much for posting even this much of an explanation; otherwise I would have been woefully and completely in the dark.

    I’m glad that others are carrying the torch.

    As for shutting down forums and copyright infringement; unfortunately many sites and related content are shut down annually – or parts of sites and with it the huge trove of data it once stored. Even from large companies. One example I can think of is when ancestry.com made a social media site to share stories about family and they promised to export data but did not export text posts to users who then lost years of conversations that had been intended by their creators to be there for generations to come.

    I suppose the lesson in all of this is to make sure that when your company doesn’t own the data (like in SaaS arrangements) that you ensure that there is a quality agreement in place within your sla to ensure that your companies records aren’t held hostage.

    Best luck to everyone as we spread out on the web.

    -Karen

  25. I am stunned to say the least. That the only way to resolve the issue was to close the whole forum rather than remove any contentious posts or forums seems beyond comprehension rather than finding a middle way or a compromise approach. It certainly raises the question of lawyer involvement in this area and the risks for forums like Elsmar Cove.

    I too appreciated the information from ElsmarCove as a newbie quality manager. It’s a bit like the Joni Mitchell song “Big Yellow Taxi” – you don’t fully know what you’ve lost till its gone.

  26. I started using the Cove before it became Elsmar and feel that I have had my right arm cut off. Been a regular user over the years and very much appreciated the work of the moderators and Mark helping me out over the years and giving input where I can.
    I found this website looking for what happened and I thank you for the links to the new forums and wish Mark and the moderators all the best.

  27. I had used the site for the last six years and found it to be extremely valuable resource for my role in QA. I haven’t been on the site for about a month and thought my new IT blocked the site. I was very saddened to learn of the sites removal. The site helped countless numbers of quality people and hopefully this will get resolved and we will have the return of the site. Best of Luck Marc.

  28. I am gutted to say the least. This forum has been an excellent guide over the past ten years, with like minded individuals being able to share their experience, and knowledge, with each other in a friendly environment. RIP ElsmarCove. Long live……

  29. Hello fellows in Quality. I unite my emotions to those of you who mourn the absence of a great tool as was elsmarcove.com. It was a reflection about the search for truth in Quality, in the regulated medical and manufacturing industries. I would like to share my thoughts in this non-technical but deeply spiritual reflection fo the impact of Elsmar and the people behind it.

    This is sad of-course, and in a way handicap’s us in many ways, because of the reliance on the authentic know-how and experiences that were shared in the spirit of giving back, creating excellence or just to be a part of something great. Helping each other, as good Samaritans; we know is an unconscious act influenced by a higher calling. This was a place for all those who experienced a need for self-giving—to give back in gratitude of what they/we have become thanks to the help of others. It was a non-pretentious source of wisdom and knowledge that we all shared and benefitted. Could this be the last of it?

    Of course not! But the leadership expressed every day in those that gave all of their knowledge and wisdom for the sake of giving back, of charity; of helping others, of extending their hand; it is a clear picture that describes the type of people that are part of the world wide quality organizations across many boundaries united by Quality.

    Many friends, relationships and love were discovered along the path in the lifecycle of Elsmar, and it shall be missed. New life will start, as we have already seen and is the cycle of life. As in all new life of such, it will be stronger and improved because Elsmar was about the truth, and righteousness around Quality in what we do and who we are.

    This has love for something like this is not and cannot change. Elsmar proved that in our unity to give ourselves in knowledge and in wisdom we can conquer our problems and difficulties in quality administration for the sake of helping brothers, neighbors and foreigners in taking up the shield (Sirach 37:5). We are yet to meet those in the flesh but it may not make a difference to the end-result; Elsmar made it possible. Thanks to the leadership and the inception of the seed that started it all. God bless to all.
    Sincerely,
    Ricky Abreu (Re: 2 Chronicles 1:11)

  32. Elsmar Cove is a huge loss to us all, but I’m glad there are so many replacements popping up to help quality professionals speak openly and work through issues on the forums. looking forward to what the future will hold.

  33. Very bad news. It was a very helpful site which played a roll of tutor for solving any type of queries. I could not find any alternate of this site.

  34. I was introduced to the Elsmar Cove as a SAP site lead back in 2006. As a career supply chain professional, I counted on it for no-nonsense discourse on quality questions I came across. I am very saddened to find it gone and look forward to the next opportunity to learn from quality professionals.

  36. Very Sorry to hear about the closure of Elsmar.com website.
    It was my first port of call to clarify any doubt in Quality domain :-(.
    Thanks to Marc for the excellent initiative.

    regards

    Siva

  37. Elsmar Cove has been my first port of call for informed comment on quality matters. That vast pool of knowledge is now not available.

    Good luck to the alternative sites that are springing up – you have a hard act to follow.

    Marc – thanks for creating something of real and now much missed value.

  38. Good news everyone! Elsmar Cove is back. It’s now owned by Peachfarm Internet Properties and you’ll find it at http://elsmar.com/Forums/index.php

    Since there’s been a lot of litigation associated with the Cove, I won’t have much news for you short term. But be on the lookout for future posts with more details when the information becomes public.

  39. I just saw that the site has been closed – very disappointing. I’ve been using it for years. I hope the founder knows how much he has helped many of us. Boo Hiss to whomever caused the need to shut it down.

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